MINUTES OF AN ORDINARY MEETING OF THE ASSOCIATION OF NORTH-WESTERN CAR CLUBS HELD AT THE HOLIDAY INN, RUNCORN ON TUESDAY 13th AUGUST 2002

WELCOME

The Chairman, Bob Milloy, welcomed delegates to the meeting, and also welcomed Allan-Lewis MBE wearing two hats, that of the MSA and that of President of the Association.

ATTENDANCE

21 member clubs were represented by 27 delegates as follows:

APOLOGIES

Apologies for absence were recorded from Eric Cowcill (Treasurer), Mike Farnworth (Training Officer), Martin Fox (Blackrod MC and Wigan & DMC), Tom Dooley (BRSCC), Ian Price (Blackpool South Shore MSC), Eve Fisher (Bury AC), Steve Johnson (CSMA), Nigel Bayley (ERO), Derek & Jan Lord (Knowldale CC), Martin Blackburn (Manx Motor Sport Marshals Assoc), Mike Cook (Quinton MC), Mike Yates (Slaithwaite MC), Dave Read (Warrington), Richard Duddell (Westfield Sports CC)

MINUTES

Minutes of the previous meeting had been circulated and were accepted on a proposal by Sue Sanders-Peppitt (P&N), seconded by Peter Riley (Longton). + VAT and not £2,500 + VAT, bookings are not to be made through Mike Ashcroft as advised. MATTERS ARISING

Letter received from John Symes of the MSA, guest at the last meeting, stating that the issue of legislation regarding under 18-year-olds officiating was to be checked.

MSA - ALLAN DEAN-LEWIS

Allan Dean-Lewis outlined recent happenings within the MSA, stating that refurbishment work expected to last 13 weeks had just begun at Motor Sports House, and asked for everyone to be patient as this would obviously disrupt the flow of work.

The Rally Marshals seminars had proved highly successful, and he was pleased to record that the local seminar had seen the highest attendance with a total of 320 marshals. Thanks were expressed to Knutsford & DMC and Chester MC for all their efforts in securing a new venue at British Aerospace when it was becoming apparent that the original venue would not be able to cater for the numbers.

At the beginning of the task it was predicted that a total of 1,000 would have been a good result. With the Jersey seminar still to be held, the total attendees to date was 2,437 of which 1,110 had been processed and issued with Registration documents. The total number of registered marshals with the MSA is 3598, the balance being race marshals.

Feedback had all been positive, whilst queries on "grandfather rights" were overcome as the system had to be auditable to show that training and experience was up-to-date. One reason for the system was to be able to supply databases to event organisers, but the Data Protection Act had ruled this out. The wording of the registration application has now been changed slightly for the applicant to consent to information being distributed. The on-line form available on www.msauk.org had been updated, and the next edition of "The Marshall" would also emphasise this.

Discussion was continuing as to the best method of providing lists to clubs. E-mail was considered the most effective, and lists may be sorted by post code. Requests for such lists would only be dealt with if they are submitted on club headed paper.

The minimum age limit of 16 may have seemed unfair (especially as competitors are permitted below that age), and was being referred to the insurers. Commonality with race marshal rules was considered important.

The seminar held in Droitwich had been filmed and the final draft had been reviewed last week. It is planned to issue the video, together with posters and leaflets, to all affiliated clubs in early September. The pack would be sent to the nominated delegated of the club, usually the Secretary. Clubs could then show the video to members at club nights.

Bob Milloy asked if the script would be such that all clubs would be stating the same thing, and how would this be policed. ADL replied that the video is a complete presentation, without additional script. A certificate of exemption would be in place for club viewing. Feedback would be welcomed.

For 2002 the MSA have issued a total of 30,640 competition licences, the annual figure remaining steady. Of these a total of 2,819 (9.2%) are for competitors under the age of 17 whilst for over 50's the figure is, surprisingly, lower at 2,077 (6.8%). There were a total of 2,754 licenced officials, an increase of about 10% since 2000 whilst there were a total of 747 affiliated member clubs.

For comparison, the ANWCC figures for 2002 give a total of 347 competitors, of these 315 have supplied their dates of birth and this reveals None under 17 (18 under 21, 37 under 25) and 40 (12.7%) over 50 (ages taken as at 1st January 2002). We have 85 member clubs, 11.4% of the total MSA affiliated clubs. Note that our figures do not include any karting competitors, which accounts for most of the difference in Under 17 year olds.

The British Grand Prix came and went successfully, the circuit owners having put a lot of time, money and effort into ensuring that the traffic problems experienced in previous years would be overcome.

The "14/28 day rule" which would affect much of the sport had seen positive responses from clubs in contacting their Members of Parliament. Peter Riley reported that the Horse Society were also being positive in objecting to the proposals whilst it was also stated that the NHS (National Health Service) had interests in the changes due to presentations that they organise. The time scale for the planned changes was unknown but likely to be debated further.

Bill Troughear, Chairman of the Regional Committee, was now also Chairman of LARA.

ADL then gave details of his new role as Head of External Affairs, responsible for media, publicity and raising the profile of the MSA. It was generally thought that the MSA has lost out since dropping the "RAC".

John Grant, currently Chairman of the MSC, is now Chairman-elect and will take over from 31 December 2002. Previously a Ford man involved in the acquisition of Jaguar.

A strategic review of the MSA had taken place and a presentation would be made to the Regional Committee at the next meeting in September.

The Club Development Fund, as well as other funding initiatives such as the MSC Training Trust, was ongoing but suffering from poor interest rates. The funds may need review, and it is important not to lose ground to ensure that they still deliver objectives.

New badges for Rescue crews were now available at £3 each. The design had been submitted by George Bailey of Stoke Rescue. The marshals badge competition, launched at the Traning evenings, had resulted in many excellent entries being submitted but, unfortunately, none were deemed practical. The challenge is still open.

346 packs for Rally Licences had been sold to date, with about a 60% takeup, this is in line with similar courses run by ARDS (Racing) and ARKS (Karting). There are no comparative figures available, showing the number of new applications from previous years. SSP informed the delegates that just over 100 potential competitors had passed the BARS course, with only two failures. The exam/test papers had been reviewed and were found to be extremely well-produced.

Clive Baty highlighted a recent problem on the Quinton Stages, where a competitor (navigator) had been refused a start due to having a Non-Race National B licence. Whilst the Blue Book states that competitors on Stage Rallies have to be in possession of a Stage Rally licence, a written instruction from the MSA to organisers, corrects this to say that navigators can compete with a Non-Race National B licence. Dave Thomas stated that he had highlighted this problem at the beginning of the year, and had also spoken to the competitor concerned (not an ANWCC contender) earlier that day - the competitor is a BTRDA championship contender and was denied a potential second class placing by being unable to compete. It was regrettable that the organisers were refusing to accept they were incorrect, whilst the MSA and BTRDA were also taking no further action in the matter.

Guy Wickham enquired as to the FIA licencing changes for foreign National events. ADL stated that it was not clear of the agreements between European, British and Irish bodies. He would enquire if the new regulations nullify previous agreements.

Martin Blackburn had enquired by e-mail on the requirements for a National A timekeeper when an event uses electronic equipment (Regulation C7.2.8) and how were club officials to be brought up to date with new technology. Unfortunately Eric Cowcill, MSA International Timekeeper, was not present but ADL would refer the question to the MSA Timekeeping Committee. It was felt that occasional dispensations were possible, such as in Karting where the timekeeper can be issued with a certificate of competence to use the equipment.

MSA COUNCIL NEWS

Eric Cowcill was not present, and no information was available, other than reported elsewhere in these minutes.

MSA REGIONAL COMMITTEE

Bob Milloy reported on the meeting held at Motor Sports House on 29th May.

Development Rights (14/28 Day rule) and Rally Marshals Training were discussed.

Colin Hilton of the MSA presented a full and open report, feeling that the profile of the MSA had dropped. Commercial Karting is to be brought into mainstream motorsport - licence upgrades now being accepted with an inclusion of indoor events.

The Industry Advisory Panel had been set up with a lot of good points and liaison between clubs, motor sport and the industry.

All Regional representatives now received copies of all paperwork relating to minutes of meetings. This has resulted from the comment that some minutes are worthless without the background information.

The Safety Committee had nothing to report to Regional, which was considered unusual!

Harmonization of competition licences was required, with similar upgrade mechanisms between rallies, racing, speed and karting - generally to come into line with rallying upgrading system.

Steve Smith, Inter-Association event co-ordinator was enthusiastic and determined to organise an Inter-Association Championship but this had not found much support, events were to stand alone. The calendar of Inter-Association events for the next twelve months had been published. Dave Thomas questioned the reasoning behind the IA Stage Rally which is to be a single-venue event at Swinderby in Lincolnshire in 2003, the same weekend as another event.

ANECCC stated that clubs and competitors were not being looked after properly by the MSA with regards to dealing with authorizations. Consultants have been appointed to look at the MSA, but it was questioned as to why the consultants did not seem to be talking to clubs and competitors.

The MSA are discussing insurance cover for 2003. There are obviously a number of difficulties and increased premiums will result. The "cashback" buffer is being eroded.

MSA RALLIES COMMITTEE

Sue Sanders-Peppitt reported on the meeting held at Motor Sports House on 15th May.

Re-fuelling is a major issue on rallies, and a proposal is being made to the next meeting to be held on 15th August. The proposals, if passed, would be recommended for 2003, mandatory from 1st January 2004.

BARS and Safety Plans were discussed. A sample anti-spillage kit was presented, more discussion at the August meeting.

The Radio Licencing and Training Seminars had seen limited attendance but a good programme. Licencing was on the list of things to be reviewed, with operators being licenced individually and not as a marshal.

Fire extinguishers were discussed - it being stated that extinguishers are to provide time for the crew to escape and not to save the car. The FIA are currently assessing different extinguishants.

Road Rallies were debated. Light pods are not permitted (K 22.4.1 and K 22.10) although there seems to be some dispute. It was questioned why light pods are not permitted and stated that some areas do not permit auxiliary lights of any type. It was felt that pods give the perception of stage rally cars. The problem appears to be regional.

Clarification of regulations can be effected immediately, changes to regulations require the necessary process, which can take up to 18 months.

SOS/OK board regulations are being amended (MSA regulation K25.5). Further debate will be made in August but regulations are required to ensure that any crew seeing another crew in difficulties must take appropriate action, such as report to the next radio post. Problems are apparent in the form of penalties to be imposed and the policing of any new regulations. Safety of the stricken crew is top priority and this must not be lost under regulation. Tim Hobbs stated that there is a problem in stating what succeeding crews at an incident must do, the problem of penalties is subjective. Martin Pratt stated that information is a priority, enabling the safety crews to come into play at the earliest opportunity. Dave Thomas suggested that instead of penalising crews who did not report incidents why not credit crews who lost time through acting responsibly, a crew reporting to a radio post could be easily logged by that post and a time credit be given to counteract the time lost.

K31(a) had been debated at length and a sub-committee formed comprising SSP along with Howard Wilcock and Mike Yates. Feedback from competitors and organisers had been tremendous with some really good, positive constructive views received.

The sub-committee is going to recommend that Clerks-of-the-Course have three options, firstly to apply the rule as written which is "miss a control - exclusion", secondly rejoin for a "Trophy Rally", or third apply as written but with the option for crews to continue in the event but not be classified as a finisher (i.e. K31(a) applied at end of event). The event regulations must clearly state the intention and crews rejoining must have their cars re-scrutineered. Results should clearly show K31(a) as the reason for a non-finish if applicable. Provided that the intentions are clear in the regulations the event will be covered by insurance. If approved the full wording will be issued to clubs as soon as possible, and will be a clarification of existing regulations so effective immediately. The Chairman thanked SSP for all her efforts in dealing with this matter.

MSA SPEED COMMITTEE

Peter Riley had attended the last meeting on 25th June 2002. One "Solo" event had been run very successfully, and the format had been passed to the Autotest Committee.

Regulation L.10 is to be revised - road going classes to have 4-point safety harness, hopefully this will be a recommendation only.

Upgrading of licences is going through the system, 4 signatures will be required to upgrade from Non-Race National B to National A (one signature can be for attending Race School), then a further 4 signatures to upgrade from National A to National A Open. There was some disquiet as this can permit a competitor to only compete on one circuit then enter a F1 car on an event! Young age licencing was being investigated, insurance aspects being the concern.

Proposal for a class for electric vehicles.

Write to your MP regarding the 14/28 ruling.

MSA AUTOTEST COMMITTEE

There had been a meeting the previous week. Saloon car specifications were discussed, with the cutting of body panels to create extra windows being deemed to render a car as a "Special". The "Wrong Test" regulation was to be clarified.

MSA TRIALS COMMITTEE

Reported that there was concern over MoT certificates, but no further information.

CORRESPONDENCE

Go-200-NT Rally Timer, details can be found on www.54321-go.com. Price £129 developed for road and navigation rallying.

Details of Forest Enterprise allocations for 2003/2004 published.

Application for membership received from Newtown & District AC, proposed by the Championship Secretary, seconded by Tim Hobbs of Telford AC. NADAC is a well-known club of long-standing and run excellent events that would be welcomed in our Championships.

Press Release from Hagley & DLCC thanked members and guests to the Loton Park Motor Sport Festival for their generosity in raising £2,750 towards charities.

E-mail from Adam Orr-Ewing of Leopard Films asking for teams to tackle the Supa Car Races, whereby teams would have limited time to buy, modify and race the car of their choice. Filming had already taken place by the time of the meeting, although publicity had been published on our website.

118 Car Club had written to say that they were no longer a Limited Company.

REPORTS

GENERAL SECRETARY

Nothing to report other than minuted elsewhere.

TREASURER

The Treasurer was not present due to F1 time-keeping duties, but it is understood that the accounts are healthy. 50 clubs had paid their annual subscriptions and the draw was made for three clubs to have their fees refunded. It took nine draws to find the successful three, these being Harlech & DMC, Mid-Derbyshire MC and Stockport MC.

The following member clubs had not yet paid their subscriptions for 2003 - Austin-Healey Club (Northern); Blackrod MC; British Rally Marshals Club; Chester MC; Clitheroe & DMC; Clwb Modur Cymru; Dovey Valley MC; Glossop & DCC; Hagley & DLCC; Huddersfield MC; Imp Club; Keighley & DMC; Kidderminster MCC; Knutsford & DMC; Lancashire AC; Lightning MSC; Mini Cooper Register; Newtown & DAC; Port Talbot MC; Reliant Sabre & Scimitar OC; Severn Valley MC; 60 & Worcestershire MC; Sporting Escort OC; Three Shires MC; Triumph Sporting OC; 2300 Club; Vauxhall MG (Wirral); Warrington & DMC; Welsh Border CC; Westfield Sports CC; Whitchurch MC; Wigton MC; Wolverhampton & South Staffs CC.

(Note that since the meeting many of the above have now paid, the list of outstanding fees as at 11th October comprises Austin-Healey Club (Northern); Hagley & DLCC; Imp Club; Keighley & DMC; Lancashire AC; Lightning MSC; Port Talbot MC; Severn Valley MC; Three Shires MC; Triumph Sporting OC; 2300 Club; Warrington & DMC; Westfield Sports CC - total 13 clubs)

CHAMPIONSHIPS SECRETARY

DVT reported that there were 347 competitors registered, with 71 events having been run to date. Event registrations for 2003 were being received and a provisional listing was distributed at the meeting. Everything is now published on the website www.anwcc.org which was being updated almost daily. The site had amassed almost 4,000 hits since February, far greater than the number anticipated. Many favourable comments had been received, with the rare complaint being dealt with quickly.

Morecambe CC had cancelled their Morecambe Road Rally due to discussions on www.rallyforum.com becoming personal. The organisers had banned 4x4 Turbo cars, although would allow them for ANWCC registered contenders.

Suggestions are being received for changes to the Championship structure and regulations and these would be considered before finalising the series for 2003.

Teams were being sought for the Inter-Association PCT, Off-Road and Road Rally events. We had submitted teams to the Inter-Association Autotest, the "A" team finishing third overall. We had also had two teams on the Stage Rally Challenge, but neither had a full set of finishers - West Midlands winning for the third time.

The Lancashire & Cheshire Rover OC were keen to start an Off-Road Championship and DVT offered to run the series. Details of the proposals were to be submitted.

FORESTRY LIAISON OFFICER

There has been a change to the structure of Forest Enterprise in North Wales, with rallies now being handled by Rob Watt at the Dolgellau Office. Martin Pratt said he was available to help if anyone requires.

AINTREE LIAISON OFFICER

Mike Ashcroft reported on a meeting held on 7th July, with Charles Barnett of Aintree Racecourse, Mike Fitzjohn from Sport England, John Haden and Phil Gough of Liverpool MC, and representatives of the ACU. Dates were confirmed for 2003, although the fees were not. If the costs are increased there could be problems. Work had been carried out by two contractors, with the cost being borne one-third each by the circuit, the car club and the motor-cycle club. Two events had been held without any problems, except for the facilities (toilets, heating, untidiness) not being satisfactory. The Golf Course is being extended to 18 holes, and will include the other side of the circuit, subject to drainage. The Sports Council had paid a grant of £50k twelve years ago, and there was disagreement over maintenance costs against a total hire fee of £250k. The major development project was awaiting NW Development Agency strategy and feasibility study, reference environmental impact and emissions. Entry levels for the Sprint meetings had been good.

OTHER VENUE LIAISON

Weeton - Clitheroe & DMC would be running the next event on 27th October with assistance from Stockport MC. This event replaces the postponed September date.

Caernarfon - problems with the venue were unresolved to date. The landowner is keen for motor sport to use the venue and the wish would be resurrected when current problems (nothing to do with the sport) are overcome.

PRESS OFFICER

Anyone wishing assistance with the Press may contact Katy Mashiter for advice.

TRAINING OFFICER

Mike Farnworth had submitted notes by e-mail. Clubs reminded to circulate Training Day information. MSA Videos will be available from September. Fire Training is planned for Oulton Park on 15th February 2003, as yet unconfirmed. The MSA supports Training Days, and are inviting bids for 2003 - anyone interested in organising club nights should contact Mike Farnworth. There will be a Rally Training Day at Myerscough College, Preston in 2003 where the facilities are said to be excellent, volunteering forms available.

RALLY LIAISON OFFICER

Martin Pratt stated that he was not aware of any problems in his patch. More people are now getting in touch with him, with more contact coming from non-affiliated clubs.

Jack Romain was calling a meeting of North Wales based clubs, to discuss the running of night events with representatives of North Wales Police. Meeting scheduled for 29th August.

Clive Baty questioned the public perception of cars, reference lights and speed. Jim Jones stated that his club (C&A) runs closed-to-club road rallies at a low profile, with no spectators, and these are very successful with no problems.

ANY OTHER BUSINESS

John Francis reminded the meeting that a Charity Track Day will be organised by the Dayz of Funder MC at Three Sisters on 16th August, and all assistance and support would be appreciated.

Clive Baty asked about the Junior Trials Formula. A Pilot Day had been held in the Bristol area, and there will be an update in the next edition of Motorsports Now! Contact at the MSA for further details is Ian Davis.

Suggestions for a workable Marshals Championship would be welcomed.

The Association had nominated Alan Bibby and Neil Bye for posts on the 2003 MSA Rallies Specialist Committee.

It was proposed by DVT that minutes of the meetings no longer be sent by post to those club representatives that have supplied an e-mail address. The minutes are now displayed on the website, and an e-mail would be sent to those relevant people informing them that the latest minutes had been added. The representative could then download from the website, or alternatively request a copy be e-mailed (MS-Word 2002). The same system could be used for ANWCC NeWs as all the information was now available on the web. The competitor registration forms for 2003 would include a tick box to be ticked if competitors wanted a printed copy sent by post. It was anticipated that publishing information in this way would reduce print and postage costs sufficiently to cover the increased cost of awards and general administration, and so subscription fees could remain at the current low levels.

DATE AND PLACE OF NEXT MEETING

The meeting closed at 2300 hours, members thanked for attending. The next meeting will be held on Tuesday 12th November 2002 at the Holiday Inn, Runcorn, commencing at 2000 hours.

The next meeting of the Association of North-Western Car Clubs will be held in the Holiday Inn, Runcorn on Tuesday 13th August 2002.

AGENDA ...

... for the Ordinary Meeting of the Association of North-Western Car Clubs, which will be held at Holiday Inn Runcorn, on Tuesday 12th November, commencing at 2000 hours.



p.p. Kay Skellern
General Secretary - Association of North-Western Car Clubs
17 Johnson Close, Henshall Hall, Congleton, Cheshire, CW12 3TQ


IMPORTANT LATE ITEM
Phoenix Rescue ... Peter Lawton has recently changed employer, which unfortunately means that his free time is now rather restricted. We have therefore had a reorganisation in the administration of our bookings. For the 2003 season Mike Farnworth will now handle all bookings, and he can be contacted on any of the following ... Telephone: 01625 611 314 or 07765 233 780, or e-mail: rescue@elihan.com or bookings@phoenixrescue.co.uk ... Please book early to avoid disappointment. Phoenix Rescue look forward to being of service to you in the near future.

Mike Farnworth